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Unapologetically Canadian
Unapologetically Canadian

Episode 27 · 2 years ago

Discussing community design with Douglas Jack

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Douglas Jack, a community organizer and designer has created an edible landscape around his home. He also serves as the president of a local non-profit organization called the Sustainable Development Association. I visited Doug last spring. During our interview, Doug and I spoke about his community design ideas and his plans for a digital community directory. We also toured his property to discover how he uses food and leaf composting to grow fruit, nuts and vegetables that he consumes year-round. For a transcript and links, visit the shownotes at https://traceyarial.com/blog/douglas-jack.

My name is Tracy Aeo and I am unapologetically Canadian. Here we are. We are at Douglas Jack's home. We are in the corner of Beljevet and John Yo in Lasalle, which is a wonderful community which is used to be called the cell heights and then it was legal, then Lessa, and I don't know what they're calling it now. What do they calling it? Does duck just they I I should look on my my lease or something like that, but just gives the address. Yeah, I think they've changed it completely. So they don't even have it. It doesn't have an entity anymore anyway. And we're talking about from a culture gardening and some of his passions and the neighborhood and the community that he's organizing here. So do you want to introduce yourself to listen talk about what what you're hoping to do? Great. So I'm Doug and and I live in this eight hundred and fifteen housing units on forty acres into properties and one is thirty three acres with turette realties, the others seven Acre Ashellem, happy Tasha on Luai Modick and I'm I've been here for Cheez thirty years and the my partner here, Rebecca, well, where x but we live close by and we have a son who's eighteen years old, Adrian. We so I this morning I was waking up Adrian at his window and I so the what's really nice about this community is there's about forty extended families, and so that means that people are connected through grandmother's, grandchildren, just the whole mixture that's here, and so promoting promoting that connectedness that's already here. So what we're doing is software project, which is a community economy software. The end are the way we're going about it is to on a website, will put the software, which has a human resource catalog. People go on to the catalog, they put on their pictures, their talents, the goods or services, the description of who they are, maybe their dreams, and then then from there people know about each other a little bit and out of curiosity, or who lives next door to me, and and then they then if they need a babysitter or they need electrician or they need a doctor or they need whatever they've got, they're able to find each other and they're able to join together because we figured that a lot of economy will be about bringing together the babysitters and the the woodworkers and other people who can share tools and knowledge and and so we figured that's the biggest challenge is just that people know each other. So we called the project do we know who we are? And that's so thecause almost like one of those old time directories from when they used to have directories when in the S and s for neighborhoods, you know. Yeah, you know, a bit like levels or some of the other directories, you know, just to make sure people actually know each other. Yeah, well, I didn't even know about that, that level. But this community here was designed the MHC was one of the chief financers and and brought in the architects and engineers and they designed it as a garden city based in Frederick holmsted's work, not by him, but but based on his work. And so they've what they've done is that they've the roads are peripheral. I'm on the corner of Belch Revenge Jean Melow, but there's event kind of goes in an arc around the community and normally where there...

...would be lane's rouet between the buildings there aren't. So it's open green space, but none of Frederick holmsted's projects, including park more reale in Montreal, nor Central Park in in in New York City, none of them were really realized as Garden Garden cities. So so we're going to just take a little bit of a tour around. Excuse the wind. We're not going to be doing this very long. So that okay. So now we're just outside and we are next to a cement composter, which I've been hearing about for a very long time because dug and I do all sorts of local community stuff together. So tell me about the tell me about what you're doing here. Okay, a lot of fear of composting has to do with rats and mice and feeding, feeding them. So many people don't compost, partially because those populations can grow. So this is a cement board composter. So Cement Board came out about of thirty, forty years ago, fifty years ago, and it's just be it's it's very durable. This one is nine years old and it has no sign or degradation, whereas the regular wooden ones that they're building and you some cities are using, the last about six years before they're unusable. So this one is in perfect condition and and well, you know, but it's it probably could last sixty years or eve maybe even a hundred years. And so the I'm a designer. I've worked on designed for fifty years. And the so I thought, let's bring together cement board with composting and it has the Araration on the corners, and so it works quite well. I can get I can get three or four harvests out of here a year and because it's cement board, I bring out my dishwater and I just poured in and the clean subucket at the same time and it wets down the material. So wet material will decompose three to four times faster than dry materials, and which is so that's it. That's a big one. Then here we've got mulching, which is these are we each every year I've been putting in about four hundred bags of garbage bags full of leaves and grass clippings and ratch chips, and so I've got a lot of plants underneath here, including those are roses and and a kind of plum and Cherry. And what what the leaves do is that they insulate the roots so that the the it's busy all winter. I can dig down. Three months ago I dug down and the worms were we're crawling around. Wow. Then in the morning there were about five kind of robins in here and they were they were picking at all the worms. Right, so they're adding their mixed and and of course, you know wildlife are working for us. They're they're doing lots of jobs, right. And so this, this compost has branches around to hold the the leaves, and so what I've done that pretty much all around and against the house, because that's insulating the basement in the wintertime. So the leaves next to the basement wall or doing two functions. They're decomposing and they're insulating the basement and then over here. And so do you remove them in the spring, like now or very shortly from now, from the side of the House. So you leave them there. I'll leave I'll leave those ones there because those are those are my grape vines there. Yeah, so the grapes need they they can use some really deep soils. This here is just a leaf compost and...

...this leaf compost is is theez. I put about sixty bags into there and it doesn't look like it, but because it gets really good. The kids come in and they jump on here like a trampoline and they pack it down for me. And so this, this will be added to the this will be added to the garden, to the this is an apple tree right here, and these are cherries and and there's and do you get a lot of fruit? Get wonderful fruit. Really it's really been abundant. Picture. I'm still eating dried apples from the garden and and Sumac that we grow. And so here is. Here's our first, even hardest thing, and it's just come to the end of the season and we've been harvest from the maple tree maple sap right so we've had about three weeks of maple sap. Now, right now, though, this is probably that last day. Was was yesterday, and you can see it's not dripping now anymore. But I've done the method I've used for the first time is a wedge method rather than a drill method. MMM, I noticed that. That's interesting. Now what did did you actually how did you get them in then? Well, I took an axe and I tapped it in and I don't know the method exactly, but it's the indeed the first nation method. When, when the then Younga Haaga. Here we're people of the flint and they were named that mostly because their primary product were we're maple, maple taps that were made in the form of wedges going into the tree. Okay, the advantage of the mate of the wedge method is that when I take out, when I take out these these from the slit, just a slit that was made, it will heal. I will heal within a few weeks. Oh Great, whereas I've got I could show you on here, not focusing right now, but some holes that I made with the old method and they never heal right, and so it damages the tree year after year after year, whereas the wedge method still I'm still learning about it, still working it out. Okay, but that's the that's with the first nation approach, who was which there's many things that we never learned. Yeah, how are we doing for time? We're just about finish the outdoor portion, but we don't we only have to do one more little section. So these are berries and currents and Cherry and apple and and currants are nitrogen fixer. So that's also very good for everything growing around it. Wow, and this is a bad SUMAC here. Yeah, yeah, sumacs. I'm surprised you don't have sumax everywhere because SUMAC's usually spread. I eat the I eat the sprouts. Okay, so you you cut the spreads like that. You do this this. Votes would I do with Dandelias? So basically harvest instead of taking them out? Yeah, that's that's it. Yeah, that's so. Yeah, so things are coming up here with different different plants will come up here and himily involves them. And this is this is a wonderful cherry tree and it does really well. It looks at you can see how strong it is. It's doing. What kind of Cherry do you know? It's just our sour, so sour. I like this sow our better. But yeah, so oer Cherry is a lovely they make great pie too. Yeah, good, so weird. Now we can go around to the back, I guess. Okay, under, under here. Of course I've insulated. You know, that's part of the basement. So I'm insulating with with the yeah, all the leagues I can get. All right, so we're finished the outdoor portion and now we're just gonna go back inside.

Okay, good. So, so now we're back inside. So that's the sound quality is a little bit better and now we can actually talk about your history and what you've been what you're you're what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah, good, good. So, so we've taken the approach to community development. There we have to software programmers. Both have their masters, one in information technology the other one in communications, and the approach we're taking is that putting up using web software so that the human resource catalog will be on their web. And today people are even, I think, more disconnected than previously. But the through the web they can get to know each other and find a reason for saying hello and find a reason for using each other's goods and services. So in a local, walkable community like like here, which is so we're, you know, forty acres, so that means that people can walked from one side to the other typically in two minutes, right, and the so getting those economic relations going. Now some people here. We have both five hundred Slavs, I mean that means Russian, Polish, Ukrainian mostly, and that then there we then we have about five hundred Arabic speakers and we have about five hundred Spanish, Spanish speakers, most of the guys working on the grounds here. Smey Spanish speakers, and but each one of them bring their incredible traditions and often these are very, you know, indigenous traditions that they're bringing from different places about. And so we have a community garden here that's seven hundred meters by thirty meters wide. That community garden, boy, there's there's hundreds of people eating off of that garden every year and now. So there would be surpluses there that they could trade with each other and the composting would really help, because the the the number one ingredient of recycling is composting. Once the compost is taken out and nothing else smells, everything else is clean. So we've been trying to get the ECHO catcher into the program of and they're very interested. There it that, you know, they're on a very low, low budget and most of their budget is around education in the schools. HMM. So, Lucas Gunzaga, he wants to get the the compost what we'd like to get. So here we have a private corporation that owns the property. I think that they do a pretty good job, except for when they spray round up or there's some things that they're just not. We've had a real problem with them around around pesticides, and actually we took them to court before the Montreal past. It's pest, Pest Montreal and Quebec Past, the no cosmetic pesticides, just so in the end we won, but we didn't win in the court case because the judge, of course, is is up at their cottage using their pesticides and and not believing that there's anything wrong with with you know. But slowly we showed it to them and they're still using round up, which is which is showed, which is shown to be a carcinogen. And someone just one a hundred and seventy million dollar lawsuit was reduced down to seventy million dollars, but as a groundskeeper working in a school. So here we are. We're with the the do we know who we are? Project? The concept is that people know each other, they trade locally, they they can earn some of their living. Eventually, when it's well organized, that means more and more and more...

...people involved in knowing each other. Then more and more of the local economy can be done locally and means that people who are traveling two hours to work, you know, to go and clean houses or something, can do it locally, and so so saving four hours a day of traveling some big life favor. Yeah, it's a big, huge life saver. So our our approach to community development is is not ideabased so much as livelihood based. Is, you know, how, how do we make sure that people are earning a living that they're enjoying to do? And so the catalog helps people to present themselves about, you know, what they're what they like to do, and then, as much as possible, help people in the jobs that they that they like to do and to grow, to grow themselves spiritually and economically. Right now you've created an organization. It's not actually a nonprofit, it's a different kind of organization to get some of these together. What kind of organization is it and how many people are involved? Well, we are. I'm the president of the Sustainable Development Association, which is a Canadian nonprofit since one thousand nine hundred and ninety four. Okay, so we've been we're a Canadian Corporation. It's a Canadian yea and but, and we have a subgroup called indigen community. So indigen is it's an old English word, but it's also French and Spanish and Italian and German and most of Europe uses the term indigen, indigen and and Digen or indigen instead of indigenous. Right. And what we're doing is I've been working with first nations for fifty five years and on different projects and been living and and across Canada and different places with first nations, and so my my understanding is that indigenous law, indigenous the the economic economic laws that they use, the accounting methods, the governance methods that they used in their communities, in their multi home buildings, could be a huge service to people today. Now, we didn't learn those because we came in violently and we immediately replaced what was here with with the failure that we brought from Europe. So we were coming as failures, we were coming as refugees from a from a bad system that had failed, and the oligarchs paid for our trip to get rid of us. But the way they had this imposed their failure on this new territory because they wanted to milk it for money, just like they milk every other place. And so here we are promoting failure in a place that was very successful in terms of ecological abundance and and working, working with rivers and water and trees and plants. So that's so our goal is to is that we're all indigenous. We're all originally indigenous from all around the world and the pub we culture orchards of Europe and and Africa and Asia and Australia kept these lands humid and productive of thousands of species of animals and huge abundance in food materials, energy and water cycle. So that's what you're promoted. Yeah, that's what you were working on. Are you working on any projects across Canada with any groups at the moment? Well, kind of in touch with old friends from British Columbia, where I where I lived for eleven years, and then I have first nation friends from Saskatchewan and...

...are sorry of Manitoba, and so we're corresponding and working in that way. But yeah, no set project. No, no project. You can announce it or anything. I know nobody's doing. Okay, and then I guess those are the questions that I really wanted to talk to you about in terms of was there anything that you were hoping to mention before I get to my last question, which is the typical one, or website, which is indigen community Dot Info, and so we've had close to Twentyzero different people come and visit it and twenty five thousand visits and they've read thirty nine thousand five hundred pages. So they're so there. We have seventy seven web sections on the website of different different questions that people might ask about food production, about governance, about accounting, about all forms of living, and so the people might find it useful. Right. Yeah, so I look to that in the show notes as well and I know that when I was reading ctly, this is managing abundance for sure. It's several decades of information on that website. So it's it's definitely the kind of thing where you need to take your time and just go through it slowly. And can you tell me maybe your favorite article on there that you think people should definitely read? Well, one of the things I found out from living amongst first nations and being in first nation areas and seeing the the ancient poly culture orchards that they grew. So when the Europeans came over they were looking for low plants. You were looking for so corn made sense to them and beings made sense and squash potatoes made sense to them. But Way, way up, thirty, forty, fifty meters up in the sky, where these trees that were producing huge amounts of nuts and fruit and and greens, and the trees change the climate. Every tree is a heat pump. So if you have a Montreal island, if you have a billion heat pumps, guess what happens to the climate? It gets warmer in this in the winter and cooler in the summer ranks. So they're they're their tree production. The roots are going down tens of meters and and pumping water, mining minerals and developing nutrient colonies deep into the ground. The canopy of the tree is photosynthesizing. It's combination, when you look at photosynthesis of solar solar rays and and also heat absorption, is considered that the polyculture orchards were photus were using ninety two to ninety eight percent of the solar energy that was being that was shining down in that area. And and so what would be included in a polyculture orchard? Giving it like it did? They have a version like the three sisters that we just talked about, the corn bean in yeah, squash with their with there a typical planting. Yeah, well, the OAK is core. Okay. So right across the Northern Hemisphere the Oak. Even in the Southern Hemisphere, the OAK is a primary human food and it's one that people don't develop allergies to. It's very nutritious. It has the alt all tree roots because they're the roots are are are mining minerals. They're putting the foods are very mineralized and means that we're getting the minerals are really key for protein and starches and incorporation into the body and and the use of all the cells really need that mineral component. So what do you eat off of milk? A noak is the ACORN, and so same.

Montreal was known for the White Acorn, and the white acorn you can actually eat it. The the red and the Brown, the Black Acorns you have to you have to soak those in water, but the white acorn you can eat directly. Okay. So you eat it like a nut, like a chestnut or something. Yeah, like like a nut. It can be cooked and and there's different rest is used a lot in in Lebanese cooking. It's used the the flowers are made so their make acorn pancakes and that'slicia. Yeah, so were we? Like we harvested a hundred and ten kilograms of butternuts last year from a local tree and that that came down to just twelve kilograms of nuts in the shell. Okay, because then people would eat the nuts as the nuts them yeah, making a flower out of that. Yeah. So where you can make flour things, but generally very highly industritious protein and and oils. The oils are excellent, the the enzymes, they're just rich, rich foods. And so we have jars upon jars of of butter nuts. Butternut is is an old is a walnut. It's called it's a type of walnut. It's called the White Walnut, okay, and so with so but poly culture orchards, they're considered like what I've done is that I've done the comparisons that I've done in the areas that I've done, I've lived, is that if you had an area the size of this, the bottom floor of this town house, say it's fifty square meters, if it was just a little bit longer, so that would be about seven meters by seven meters, okay, and that could support say, one tree and the the hundred and fifty year old trees that that used to be the average age of the OAK could produce up to ten tons of ACORNS in one master year. To typically about two three tons, but say ten tons in a master year. And the same area. I also worked in agriculture, so I worked in wheat production. I worked on combines and the same area of wheat could only produce three kilograms. Wow, compare three tons or ten tons. And in a master that master's about once every seven eight years. Right, three kilograms compared to three tons. Now that's what are you doing with that? That's a nut where I flower. Okay, that's the nut, because with the wheat we're producing flower out of it. Yeah, and so, but with the not, what are you producing? Like, what the when you're saying three tons? Is it just the net itself three times? So then what would you produce out of it? Yeah, so the not would have to be the husked, the the the shell taken off. And but it's nice because the tree is drying it. So it's a bit drier than the the wheat. The wheat has the wheat has to be dried, has to be processed, the has to be d d husked, and so there's both of them are being reduced down from the original harvest. And the but the so with with Oh butternuts, acorns, all of these, say the the say the the three, three tons of acorns coming off those old trees. They would now you have to feed the tree because you can't just take from nature. You have to give back, right. So you're taking off a lot. You can compost pretty much all of the stuff you take off of that. That's right. And so, whether it's your pool, your pea or your or the garden, kitchen cuttings or whatever you've got, you're feeding that tree and is processing materials for you. Then the so. So the...

...ratio would still we use the ratio of of a hundredfold that. The polycultural orchards in the same space, the same ground space, will produce about one hundred times more. They will water themselves, they will they fertilize themselves, they will, they will do, they will handle everything so that there's no work. Right. Well, there's work to tip hargists, to harvest and to actually pretty something out of the nut. And now I they like the black walnut that are like really tough to open to they easier like? Are they more like chestnut where you can just cut it a hole in it and cook it and then it releases more easily? Yeah, it's more like the the the butternut like that I've got can be very big and and can be easy, but that's a matter of breeding and feeding. So the the butternuts that I that my neighbors, my Russian neighbors, give me from Moldova, are rich and succulent and big and fat and actually fatter than our walnuts in the store. But that's because they've bred them right. So over thousand years, say, or two thousand years, right, and whereas so all of these nuts, whether it's the butter not that I've got here, it would take a culture of people working, working with them to but they're certainly delicious. In the meantime, in the nut is a little bit harder, like like the Black Walnut. It's more difficult to open. Okay, but the Black Walnut as well can be bred and fed to and and but just in terms of like they did. So you're not selling the jars of walnuts or anything like. You're what are you doing with the actual food? Oh, I'm cracking them open. And with my by scripts. Oh, okay, and then just eating them that way. Yeah, just eating that way. I just considered. Well, you know, I had to use a sledgehammer on my last black walnut. It was like it was so impossible. When nobody the vice scripts are are they do it just with a yeah, I'll have to try that. Deck stiff my script might be a little easier with the problem being is that the food from our grocery store is empty. It has practically no minerals. Well, these are black, not well nuts from a farmer. So yeah, yeah, no, I mean, but it is. But what? Why? Why do we want? Why do we work with what we've got? That's wild. Is because when we go and buy green vegetables or things from the store, they have very, very little to offer us in terms of vitamins, minerals, enzymes. They're just empty foods. And I mean there's a certainly more than packaged fast foods, but they're there. They have very little in them compared with getting with, you know, getting planets. Now we can work with those and and get both from them. But we we that's we have to become a responsible people again. Well, and that's what we're working towards. I know that there was any good your fest. There was an interesting company working on a little meccada machine or a little to will that you could use to open the black walnuts. I'm really hoping that that works. Yeah, that was really awesome. All right. So the polyculture, whichards is the that's the one. Maybe send if I can't find it, I'll ask you and I'll get you to send me the lake so I can put that in the show notes as well. Yeah, we put it under Orchard Food Production Efficiencies. Okay, we're so food production efficiency because we're comparing. We're using it as a compare, a place of comparison with the word agriculture comes from the Latin. AG ARE A, J are means field, so from the Latin. So what we've got agriculture and and what's strange is that, you know, I've known many...

...props from Mc Gill and they just throw up their hands because the agro business has so much control over McDonald college that they've been there for decades and they can't make a change in in in teaching, in teaching true knowledge. And they well, they do. They teach what they know. But the the all of the marking and the is is all according to what agribusiness is telling them to do. Well by, because people are looking for jobs too, so let's send those are the ones that are available, though. So, even though even though the the polyculture orchards would be a hundred times more productive in an in are in any area, including in the cities, where they grow vertically next to our buildings, right, that's really important if we want to bring food security to to our our city areas or down. That's why I always looking for recipes, because if you have one recipe that people really want to have been they're willing to get their will link to do a lot. Like, for I note, for many people no longer eat currents right because they don't know about them anymore. But at our market when currents are available, there's a couple people who come in because they're making their jam that their grandmothers passed through the family, and so I just finding a good recipe. So if you have a good recipe for one of the for for oak in particular, or one of the other nuts, then and it's on the website, let me know and all like specifically to that, because I think that's important. Yeah, we can do we can do that and before you go, I'll crack open a couple of black of the white butternuts. Awesome that. They're wonderful. So we can try it out. You see, you see how the how easy it is with the vice scripts perfect. Actually, I'll take a video of you and we can put that in with specially in the show notes as well. Yeah, awesome. All right, and now you know, we get to the last question, which I gave you ahead of time so you'd be able to think about it. Do you consider yourself a Canadian and, if so, what does that mean to you? Well, the word Canada comes from the Dune Youngehga, Gon Yangehaga, meaning people of the Flint and the it's sorry, the the the word Gunnada means means village. So so when Jacqu Kartche came and he asked, well, what's the name of the country, and they said maybe, not understanding the European concept of states and countries, said well, this is Gonnada, this is we are. We are gonna end and in the French sense, but you know. So we are people of the village and it is it is as people. So all our indigenous ansistors were, whether they were Celtic people, from Europe, from Africa, from Australia, from Asia, this was an international system. They were all using string shell they were all living in villages, they were all living in hundred person multi home dwelling complexes because they considered that the intergenerationally interaction between the grandparents and the the children and the and the ants and uncle's and the and the different families having a critical mass and economies of scale. So what's interesting today is that seventy percent of our populations live in multi home dwellings and that's the the size that all our indigenous ancestors were looking for was actually one hundred people represents about thirty two units. What turns out that the average size of our multi home buildings is thirty two units. So we have more is it's a just a very efficient unit, efficient size. So even capitalism has rebuilt on that model. And so the so Ganada, you know, I'm a I'm a gun and the end, and...

...which means that I believe that redeveloping these fractals, because we're so dependent on the top. So the trillionaire oligarchs at the top who control the US Federal Reserve, the Bank of England, the Bank of International Settlements, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. They captured control of the top. We don't have that. We so they're just commanding and controlling whole populations. In fact, they think that there's probably about ten times too many people on Earth because they don't know how to appreciate nature. And if if every person just collected their Pooh and bio bio digested their Pooh in a methodization chamber, we would have gas, we would have fertilizer. We are trees would grow bigger with our bouter nuts would grow bigger. Are All of our food would be very, very easy, just as it was. You know, people that researchers like Peter Kropotkin back in the nineteen century and and tolstoy and others, when they were looking at indigenous people, they were describing that these people are working one hour per day. Indigenous people worldwide, we're working one hour per day instead of ten hours per day. So that's basically even better than Tim Ferras. It's for our work week. Yeah, well, and it's based on non nature, all right, based on natural and and also human, Human Association so, getting back to Gnada, you're a person of the village. Yeah, some. So what does that mean to you that? Well, we already live. Seventy percent of US live in village complexes, some kind of architecture with that's clustered, where we're sharing walls, ceilings, floors and but we don't know how to live together. And so the the the ancient string shell, which was time based accounting that included the domestic work, domestic, industrial and commercial work. Today's economy only where only accounts for domestic, I'm sorry, commercial and industrial and doesn't account for the domestic. So people who are doing the most important work of taking care of children and and elders and and looking after our very well being, their work is an accounted for, whether it's mostly women but also some men to and so read developing these economies were right where we live already and we don't have to move to some perfect community, just where we are. So the software is designed that people will know each other. We they'll be able to associate with each other and and trade with each other. Everything is accounted for, just like it was with the string shell. And then the the other facets. So there were two aspects to indigenous life with the multi home, and within the multi home they had the the string show, meant that everything was accounted for, all contributions were recognized, so celebrated and all and then, in time, when issues came up, whether it's positive or negative, they had council process so that people would sit down together and within the circle. So the circle was kind of like a recording device, a feedback machine, and he would talk with each other and they reach given equal time according to the traditions, and so bringing these two aspects so that people can live together and work together again awesome. All right. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time. Is Great Interviewing. Good gain. Thank you for listening to an apologetically Canadian. This episode was brought to you by notable nonfiction. Notable nonfiction teaches people to grow through their own ingenuity. Find out more at...

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