Unapologetically Canadian
Unapologetically Canadian

Episode 6 · 4 years ago

Keith Neuman and Canada's World Survey 2018


Canadians value multiculturalism, welcome refugees and send more money overseas than our government does. These are just a few of the results from Canada's World Survey 2018. I spoke to Keith Neuman, the Executive Director of Environics about the survey last week. For more info, refer to

My name is tray Sierio and I am unapologetically Canadian. Here we are today with Keith Newman and we he is from the Environics Institute for Survey Research and we're going to be talking about Canada's World Survey Two thousand and eighteen, which was the least by the Canadian International Council last Monday April Sixteen, two thousand and eighteen. Now this study follows up Canada's world serving two thousand and eight and so I'm very interested to hear keep what exactly is happening with the study. Why two different studies and what did you find that you really appreciate about it? Well, tracy, thank you for having me on your podcast. Let me clarify up front this certain this project was a joint initiative of for organizations. It was our institute, it was the Canadian National Council, but also the Simon Fraser University, Public Square and Bill Graham Center for contemporary and so I guess we would describe it as a joint venture and it's the way in which we approach many of our studies. And so this this was a survey that we just released yesterday, Monday April sixteen with our partners, looking at how Canadians and individuals relate water world and how they see their cut few and this is a part art from what the government's doing in foreign policy and all of those official things that happened out of Ottawa, but more at a personal level. This survey was an update of one similar survey that we did in two thousand and eight, which was the first time these kinds of questions have been asked the Canadians and ten years later it was time for an update. Awesome. So what's your role in this? What? What do you actually do for Veronics? I am the executive director of the end growing institute, which is a very small nonprofit organization. Two Thousand and six five Michael Adams, who is a public intellectual, has written many books, founded a research company, also with the Enronic, and is often in the media talking about social friends and social values. So we, the institute, does public opinion and social research in Canada about Canada. That's research that's not being done by anybody else. We ask questions that aren't normally asked. We often interview people not normally surveyed in a way really to help Canada understand itself better. And so what would you say that the brief overview of a study results? What did we find out in overview? We asked a lot of questions and questions were ones with two thousand and eight. So we're really look looking forward to see change or not. I think there are a number of things that really stand out. You know, the world that was night in two thousand and eighteen has changed quite dramatically. Many events, many over that period of time. Two Thousand and eight seems like a very quiet, peaceful to dylic point of history when we live here to the challenges the country, the country in the world, are facing today. And what was one of the remarkable from the survey was that Canadians use on many of the questions and topics we covered have changed for markably little over this tenue. Some some attitudes we might have thought it in one way or another really have that much and that's quite striking. Yeah, well, actually I think we should go into some of the details. Like you were telling me before, that the states you actually have data on that going back to one thousand nine hundred and eighty two and there's been twenty different surveys just about that. So can you tell me has the overall opinion of the United States of Canadians towards the United States? Has...

...that changed? Is that similar to what you've found before? What did you discover? Oh yeah, another important part of the survey is it's not that none of the Canadians have changed. I think somethings have changed in response. Have to be the world so and I think opinions of the United States is one of those examples. And we've been asked about their overall overall opinion of the usays every year, every several years, and we've seen sort of, you know, change over time. I think overall opinions the United States tend to be much more positive than negative, but we have found that it is sensitive to US politics and who's in the White House and we found through the S and s that seventy percent of Canadians were positive about the United States. That really changed significantly when George W Bush the House and the US pursued very aggressive foreign policy the Middle Eastern elsewhere and we saw that opinion, favorable opinion, number dip to about fifty percent. When Obama came in, the opinions climb back up to where they were before it was around seventy percent and and then more recently, shortly after Donald Trump took over the White House, we found that opinion of plummeted to an all well and lasted fifty percent, about forty forty five percent of Canadians with the United States. So that that's that's where there's been clear change in response to events and and I think there's been other survey research cannon and elsewhere showing that, apart from the local divisions in the United States of outside the United States, in almost all countries, opinion of the president and the United States has gone down quite that's interesting. Actually, maybe at this point we should tell people how the study was collected, because this was a telephone survey right rough one thus five hundred people, one thousand fifteen hundred. So yeah, so surveys are done in different ways and a lot of serves are now done online. This survey was done by telephone. Telephone surveys are still an effective way to do surveys. But provided that you survey people not only on landlines but sell and so cell phones, how do you get the numbers of all the people that? If it's cell phones, it's it's not as difficulty as you might think. So it's not as if there's a three cell phone numbers and names, but, but, but companies. Companies have provide purvis and generate numbers. Do have distinct numbers for cell phones as opposed to land lines, and so possible to generate sort of broad lists of phone numbers. Some of them may not be working, some of them may be old or whatever, but it's feasible to do and I think most telephone surveys done these days have called dual sample design, where they have a big list land lines of cell phone and they make sure that they have someone. So was a telephone at the end of last year, representative sample across the country and age, gender and that sort of thing. And one of the reasons we did this survey by telephone is that the survey in two thousand and eight was also done by telephone. And when you want to compare different surveys you really need to use the same survey methodology because it's clear that when question, depending on what type of survey you do, you might get a slightly different answer, whether it's online survey, in person survey or telephone. So matching the the survey method is important way to ensure that we...

...can look at changes away. So and how reliable would you say this survey? Is that? What's the what's the stats? Well, that's a that's a question. There there many, what we describe it sources of air in how surveys are done, in many different categories or types of error and most of the way to measure it. So I think that the only couple, the only points I guess perhaps I would make is one we ask the same questions using the same methodology, so there's consistency. The comparability would be there the margin of sampling, Ayror, which is sometimes quoted for probability percent thank you. UND twenty samples. That's that sort of simply some sort of random error that might apply, example, of fifteen hundred. But I should point out that that's one particular measurement that is quoted quite frequently because it's the only one that you can put a clear number on. And some is useful but by no means complete, and I think there is perhaps an over emphasis on margin of sample of here in the reporting of survey resort. That's interesting. So in this particular case, then we have a cross section of ages across section of regions. We have a now we actually one of the things that you notice is that there was a diversity in terms of younger Canadians versus older Canadians. Can you describe a little bit about what happened there? Well, yes, and I'm just referring to the results here. So when we're doing this kind of survey it's of course important to make sure that we have good representation from the population, probably by age and region, but under income education. So you know, we need to have a really good cross section and then when we look at the results, we look at the overall results, but we also look at the results by a lot of these different groups. There's similar these differences and for the most part the broad conclusions from the study more or less apply to all of the age groups and all of the other subjects that we've been looking at. So if we have distinct realities of view across its generations of a Canadian. But that being said, there are some differences across that are coming out and I think most interesting perhaps is that the youngest group that we serve, engages of eighteen to twenty four do in the sense that that age cohort in two thousand and eighteen shows a some like a set of attitudes than than eighteen to twenty four girls did ten years ago. It's obviously a different group of people should be and I over the ten years young Canadians have become more engaged in it and more likely to be traveling and feeling more connected to many of the things that are happening and in some cases they have caught up to older age groups in terms of air level of engagement. Case they've actually surpassed older Canadians. So interesting shift that's happening the youngest set of adults that we have in the country, part their engagement, but partly in terms of their attitudes, in terms of how they seek Canada playing its role in the world, of plague, plays role in the world. They're more young, more positive about Canada's influence in the world, what it is, what it can do and also, particularly in one of the other major findings that we when we ask Canadians what their country's contribution is to squirrels,...

...weaven older Canadians to say it's about being a multicultural, diverse, welk people. So I think you must have turned your mic at some point. We lost the last we lost the last tech section. there. Hear me now? Yeah, now I hear you. Okay, so you are saying, you, you, you, we just lost you as you were saying that younger Canadians have more approach on the world, similar approach on foreign affairs and travel as they were their other age groups. But the last section of that, the last sentence of that, got lost. Let me try again. Okay, the youngest chord of Canadians ate those as eighteen to twenty four. They've either caught up for sebaste older chords of Canadians in terms of their engagement with the world and the Canada's, their country's role, the impact that it has to the world and more than older can and it's the youngest group that is most likely to say the Canada's contribution to the world is being a multicultural, diverse, welcoming place to people from other countries. Okay, okay, so then that basically they're traveling more. Is there some sort of diversity in time in terms of who they are, because I notice in another question you talk about whereas multicultural Canadians and Canadians from from communities being more open to diversity. Yes, well, eighteen to twenty four year olds are a bit more ethnically diverse or immigrants, but not dramatically. It's I think it's more about that life stage than it is about where they're but you do touch on another point, is that the other group that stands out in our research are those were born in another countries. It's now about twenty one or twenty two percent of the pocket. It's not insignificant and we would expect people board another countries perhaps to be more engaged in what's happening Canada because they come from outside of Canada and they probably have strong connections to a country or a region. So that makes sense. But but what we found is that over the ten year period between the two surveys that it's for group that has become more connected to the world outside. So the gap between for Board and native his wife for this period of time. Sorry, you said that the foreign born Canadians have become more connected to the world's May become board engaged. Like youth. The level of travel, engagement and paying attention for foreign born is higher in two thousand and eighteen that it was in two thousand and eight Oh, okay, so, and that may be a question of technology or something else, and there's no way of knowing that because the question didn't mask that right. No, no, it doesn't really ask that. So obviously there may be technologies and other sorts of things that help, but some of that man years ago, and certainly travel was an option ten years ago, and sending remittances overseas. This is one of the other things that we measured. And for board, Canadians also are how their attitudes have changed a bit more. I think that they are now more positive than they were ten years ago about Canada's influence in the world. They're actually more optimistic about the general direction of the world and native part and that's a bit of a that's a bit of a change. And they're also a bit more like playing abroad and they were ten years ago. So there are a number of dimensions of this where we've seen a shift, not a dramatic shift, but noticeable enough to conslude something's change.

Well, that brings up the an interesting part of your study when you divide people up into the optimists versus the past sists, and that was a question that you asked them, basically how they looked on the world's contribution. But also. So can you describe a little bit about how they broke down into optimist versus pessimists in the entire study? Sure. Well, what are the questions that we asked? A very general question was, and I'll read the question for you. Would you say that you're basic or basically pessimistic about the direction was heading over the next ten years? Pretty in general question, but we're trying to get a sentiment of sort of where people's heads are at when they look at everything happening in the world and ask the question. Ten years ago two thousand and eight and two thousand and eight Canadians were evenly divided. Forty six percent said they're basically optimistic, forty six percent basically pessimistic and the rest were subwar. In between their answering happens. So that's that's what we gon back in two thousand and eight and I think today. Two Thousand and eight, as I said, was a pretty peaceful, stable time. It was well before the financial global meltdown. You know, we didn't have the same kind of conflicts happening world. We didn't have the same kind of authoritary regimes. They're all sorts of things that weren't happening then. So today, in two thousand and eighteen, how would Canadians answer that question? And we thought a good time to ask so in two thousand and eighteen we ask question and we almost the same results. Forty four percent we're basically potimistic, forty eight percent basically pessimistic. Just a very slight change, and that's actually quite surprising because I think that people today feel that the world is in a much more perilous situation today that it was ten years ago. And yet when you ask the Commadian this question, we're not getting something much different. So I think that's you know, it's perhaps a lesson to us or some insight about how people are really feeling and whether all the terrible things that we see in the new social media is actually permeating people's sense of where things are going. Yeah, and that question. Now, was that done before the questions about the positive contributions and the major world issues, or was that after? It was it was near the front of the survey, so it was he was asked before some of the other questions, but that's that's by design. You didn't want the discussion about terrorism and some of the other things that were brought up by the world major concerns figures that it well, it could have been. Sure, you never know, and and so it's better to have it's a very generic question and we don't yeah, we don't want to be throwing a lot of issues of people in that. It's also the way we asked it in two thousand and eight. So you want to be fairly consistent. Right, right. Can we talk about the major world concerns that were brought up at us now? Where they were they actually listed by survey respondence? Where was the survey question actually listing those concerns? That's a very good question. Actually, we asked if both ways, which is really the best way to do it in these kinds of survey. So first we asked people on our survey what do you think is the most important issue problem facing the world today? And we as we describe an unprompted question. We did not give options to pick from. And and then we got a tale their mind response. What was most sales? And then after that then we listed twelve issues and ask them the level of concern they had. A Bun. So it's a very useful way to get both the top and their view specific issues you want everybody. And so what were the top concerns? When they were unprompted, the top two concerns were sort of the environment, global warming, pollution, twenty one and more conflict, lack of peace, also at twenty... percent. Wow, so those were the two most likely be mentioned. And then starting hunder ten percent, the economy and recession, seven percent, there, some seven percent so forth. Then a number of others, all mentioned by small proportion. What's interesting is than in two thousand and more we're also the top two, but there were more more likely to be mentioned than they were now. So I think what's happened is still there's a larger set of issues that people are identified by small percentages each case. Right. So how many? How many answers would you did you put in that category? Then you because and environment and more are the top two. Garvation of hunger and economy and terrorism are very close. If it's seven percent, ten percent, accordingly, yeah, but that then there. Then you get several and four percent and then three percent and two percent. So all the other ones are mentioned by very small proportions. I will point out that perhaps somewhat surprising maybe to some people is that mention of Donald Trump and US politics as a most important world issue was mentioned by only four percent of Oh wow, despite the the result of the previous result on the overall opinion of the United States dropping. Yes, yes, so it's not. I mean people have their opinion United States and opinion of Donald Trump, but when you ask this broad question, that's not the that's not the focus that most people have. Now when people talk about the day more or conflict, they may be thinking about, you know, potential US North Korea or US Russia and that sorting. So you are Syria this week. There's some maybe US politics behind it, but but specific mention of a trump or US politics or whatever, very few people actually focused on that as their tough most important world issue right now. Then you listed, you said do you had twelve world concerns that you listed. which ones were the most concerning of that list? Well, global warming, the environment was also at the top of that list, followed in this case your famine in the developing world. Oh then then terrorism, human rights abuse, growing gap between the rich and the poor, scripts and religious ethnic hatred, global warming, environmental problem, with fifty five percent of they're very concerned and hundred famine, fifty three percent terrorism, fifty two percent environment and hunger. A little bit from two thousand and eight, not by much. Terrorism is up. So actual concerned about terrorism. It's up a bit more than it was ten years ago. And what about the gap between the rich and poor and things like that, because in two thousand and eight would but that would be higher perhaps. Well, it's interesting in the which of the poor, forty nine percent say they're very concerned. In two thousand and eight it was forty seven percent. So unchanged, basically unchanged. Oh yes, wow, okay, kind of nuclear weapons, plee. Forty nine percent up from forty so not a lot. I think the most interesting change from two thousand and eight is spread of in effect, such as HIV and eight. So in two thousand and eight forty four percent, sir. Now it's down to twenty percent. Oh Wow, okay. Is that because of the stars? A problem? At that time it's ours was actually two thousand and three, but more recent I think it's a combination of things. I think that in two thousand and eight stars was gone, but still in memory HIV and AIDS was more of an issue than it is now. So I think that there were numerous outbreaks or issues ten years ago that the public consciousness, and two thousand and seventeen, two thousand and eighteen, those issues have kind of disappeared. I think that there may be a sense out there that hid eight is no longer in epidemic and then it's treatable and you know. So that's the radar and we haven't had other kinds of outbreak diseases. So I think... this case, because there has been much happening, people's sense of strong concerned has diminished. The numbers I'm quoting you are only the people who say very concerned. They also may be somewhat concerned, and most of the people who are not very concerned. So it's not that people are dismissing me, but what we're focusing on in our results of the people that are sorted. So you're focusing on who, sorry, the proportion who say they are very concerned about the issue. Right, okay. What about the people who say that they're not as concerned? was there anything to mention on that part? Not Really. I mean it's pretty small proportions of Canadians who, I'm not concerned about any of these issues and that's why you have to use the proper kind of question scale, because we ask people, are you concerned about this or not, then you'd probably get eighty eighty percent saying well, yes, I'm every issue right. But it's important to qualify that and get a strengthen because it's not really a yes or no. I don't think there really. These are really not yes or no kinds of questions. So so the greatest sort of discrimination or being across opinions about an issue like this is the extent or degree of concern. Right and because because most people will say, well, yeah, of course I'm concerned about it, that doesn't help be some people are really scared and highly concerned and other people are kind of maybe just saying it because they feel they should right now. One other thing that I noticed from the study is that people are more willing now to say, well, are more willing to be impressed with Canada because we are multicultural country. Can you comment a little bit about that part of the survey? Yes, probably maybe one of the most important findings from the survey, and I think you know it, historical turns back over the last a couple of generations or so. If most thought about role in the broader world in terms of projecting outward and it's impact and what it's doing. I think that most people, and we've seen this on surveys, would think about peacekeeping. They might think about development assistance or work, you know, sort of being part of growth, world wars, or at least you know when you would ask Canadians what what our contributions and so forth, I think those are the kinds of things that people, most Canadians, sort of think about and it and it's not as if most people are paying close attention to all the specific policies and activities, but that's that's that that Canadians have had for many generation, starting and I guess, right after World War, about prize peace and so forth. But as as as as I think most of us are, many of us know candidates want to be the way it used to be and don't assistance and so forth sill a tendency, I think, for Canadians to think about those same things, because nothing else has replaced right. But what we've seen, started to see over the past few yearly comes out there and survey is that Canadians view of their country, they're almost their identification of the country as fitting into the broader world as really shifted quite significantly in the past couple of years and more than that any other time. Canadians, when you ask them what's what's our contributional world, sort of what what? What kind of role Moll can we be? It's being a multi cultural, diverse to whoso society that Bos from all over that I think that over the past couple of decades Canadians have come to kind of recognize this aspect of our country because we're starting,...'s becoming evident and many, if not all, Canadians are starting embracing saying well, this is a very positive thing that we're doing. So it's becoming part of our idea. That's interesting because it almost takes us back to confederation, when Canada's most successful, that the idea of federalism was such a new, prominent idea that time and we were considered him mode along the world. I don't you know't be curious. I don't think there were any surveys done back then. There weren't about it. But I think that it's really it's we've seen in our research, this study and other studies, we've seen the the sort of issue and for many people embracing the snow shippers place we take all the people. And I think what's also very important is that the country is response to the refugee global rate over the past couple of years was, I think, a galvanizing event for the country. was, you know, that it became an election issue in two thousand and fifteen and that we decided thirtyzero refugees and half of many of those were privately conser this this this is really kind of push this this few and we asked on the survey about accepting refugees and full of very interesting results. First, we described in the survey the fact that the country to thirty sees over to your period. Almost two thirds of Canadians told us on the survey that the country should continue to take that many or more refugee. So, unlike some other places, other country there's a bit of a backlash to taking refugees. That's not happen in Canada, that it's almost the reverse. Wow, that is that is actually really interesting. Yes, it's not that everybody's behind it. There are people that aren't happy about it, but pretty are. The other it's very revealing question is that we ask Canadians on the survey about their involvement in the private sponsorship of Syrian refugee families. There were a lot of private sponsorships and so forth, but on the survey seven percent of Canadian said that they were act, they were involved with the group sponsoring a refugee family, so a church or synagogue or a group of friends. That's almost two million Canadian and another twenty five percent of Canadians say they know someone who was. Wow, so that's a third of Canadians who in some way had some connection either themselves win somebody they knew involved in this. And that's quite a significant statement because, I mean those numbers may not be exact. There may be some of Placian, there may be people who really weren't like to have been and so forth, but the very fact that so many people would say that suggest that this, this has touched a nerve the positive way and people see this as a positive thing. Wow, yeah, that's that is quite impressive in terms of stating what result responses to refugees. So you wouldn't imagine that people would be so welcoming on such a big level. Yes, and I mean lot thoats that we hear about a positive response to you know that there are more people that want a sponsor, that there are refugees to give them families the sponsor. So we know. I totally that positive outboy, but this gives us more of a broader picture and I think just to not to put too much on the point, but the only country in the world that has private sponsorship the refugees. It's the only one can. It is really yes, in every other country refugees or by governments. No other country had no idea that that was the true. It started with the Vietnamese refugees in the late s. It was also private sponsorship and you know, was successful. So that paved...

...the way for this and they're probably isn't another country is in the in the world that that refugees. Almost every other country in the world refugees. If not, if not controversial or political or you know, there's there's resistance, their issues, their problems. Obviously, in many countries, particularly in Europe, the numbers are refugees are fluspelling the countries systems and in Canada we're very fortunate we can control the flow. So it's not necessarily because Canadian made better or more like people. You know, I don't think we can necessarily say that we're simply better. It's the circumstance r but but the other countries like Australia and United States and so forth that can control this some extent and refugee issues are more are somewhat more country. So there is something unique about Canada and you know its history, it's culture, it's society. Its institutions have allowed this continue to work for the most part, successfully, not tirely. That's not showing any subpet of pray quite yet. Well, that's that's fascinating. Actually. That brings to the other questions from after multicultural that I happen to notice, the importance of international trade and and the fact, you know, the fact that you actually have more data than just these two studies to talk about and that area. Right. Well, you talk because a little bit about what what you asked when it comes to international trade and why that was a what's changed over time? Right, so it looking at how Canada is in the world. I mean, you know, trade is a pretty critical aspect of the Canadian economy. So it matters to this country. The olation is of large enough to have big domestic markets to conceive all the things that we produced. So it's an important aspect of our economy and our way of life instead of living. But question is, to what except our Canadians of international trade, trade deals and so forth, because if the population is not supportive, that creates political pressures our governments. And you know, we go back to S S. You know there was a facteen eighty eight fought over the free trade deal where the country was quite divided about about free trade with the US and so forth. So these things matter. So we asked the question, two questions. And what question is was the he depended of Nafta on honey. You know, people trade reports, but they have a sense of what's happening and we started asking about a asking this question in nineteen ninety five on some other surveys that we do and for nineteen ninety five we did about eight or nine surveys up to the present and and basically what we're seeing is a notable opinion. Back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five Canadians were more likely to hurt meeting economy has been helped it forty four percent to thirty four percent, and then the rest were quite sure. So somewhat conflicted back in the mind after was fairly new. People weren't sure what was happening. He was coming out of the session. In two thousand and eighteen, sixty three perfect say NAST has helped the Canadian conomy, versus only eighteen percent who say it's for some time more than three two one possible. So I think the message here is that all of the internal debates about about trade overseas haven't completely gone away, but they have largely settled down from perspective and...

...there's there's no longer sort of major splits with society at this point in a broad level about should we do trade deals and should be selling abroad and so forth. So I think that's an important evolution. And then the other question we asked was important to people put on international trade play of maintaining Canadian job light. Is it important or not? And we've seen a similar progression from two thousand and eighteen and in two thousand and eighteen our current survey, seventy three percent of Canadians say it's very important, is very important to quality of life, for only twenty two percent who say it's somewhat important, and only four percent of Canadians say it's not important at all. Wow, that's a big difference from what we're seeing in the world with Brexit and some of the other discussions. I mean even enough two discussions now exactly. That's what significant here is that in the US and European countries it's not that there's not some appreciation of trade, but it's much more bid conflicted and maybe some trades good and other trades bad. And yes, it is happening very different differently elsewhere. So I think it's it's another area where Canada, in Canadians, there's something, if not exceptional, distinctive about where we are today. Yeah, that wow. was there anything about this survey that I didn't ask you about that you want to point out particular questions that we didn't talk about? Yes, just that Canadians are actually one of the ways in which they engage. We sending money either to organization international or Canade organizations work overseas in various capacities. About for IPORT having given some money to these kinds of organizations, non profits primarily, and and so forth. In and about one I have actually said much when and sorry, what was that one? And what one in five. When in five, okay, but in five Canadians have actually sent money abroad to family and friends. So it's normally this is often called remittances, more often foreign born, the native board. But you know, we know that this has happened. People send money back to their family or their community or so forth. But we asked, you know, we wanted to ask how many and how much. And so one in five Canadians years have set money abroad and the average amount of money is about twenty five hundred dollars. Wow, that's extraordinary. Yeah, so if you add all these numbers up over a two year period, it all amounts to twenty one Canadian money coming. Sorry to say that. It say that again. You've cut out twenty one billion dollars, twenty one billion dollars over two years that Canadians, as individuals or households, have organizations or to family or friends overseas. And if you look at the federal government's official development assistance budget over two years, it's about half that. Oh, that is mind blowing. Yeah, so it's not, you know, it doesn't have the profile, it's not something that we can all visibly see. But when you look at the numbers, you realize that one of the impacts that Canada has in the world is through individually game. So Canadians are having one of the ways that they are making a difference in the world is by individual donations overseas, either too families or to nonprofit organizations, and it's double what the Canadian government gives in the exact same two years. That is extraordinary. What a great way to end our discussion about what the world survey talks about when it comes to Canadian identity. Thank you so much, Keith. The only question I have left is do you consider yourself a Canadian and, if so, what does that mean to... I'm not a tellad. I'm unapologetically Canadian, are you? And you told me that you can for the US. Can you tell me a little bit? But what mean what Canadian? What being Canadian means to you? Well, I moved here in eighty two. I married a Canadian that I met in Graduate School of the US and like most Canadian, sorry, like almost all Americans, I knew nothing about Canada, absolutely nothing. I might have been able to tell you about Toronto, which really know. I you know, I Canada was completely a blank slate. For me, but I married a Canadian and she wanted to come back and I thought that sounded good, so I just said yeah, I'll give a try and I really never look back and I think that maybe I have a Canadian supsibility. But I been here happily ever since. Flirted a couple times of maybe moving back for professional reasons, but never have and have since given up a uses and chip, and so I feel very Canadian and it's the rare individual that that ever can that ever figures out that I'm not from here. I could said I could say it that a compliment there or a good thing. So I fit him very well. How do you define Canada? CAN BEING CANADIAN? How do you define that kind of identity? Well, it's a difficult thing. You know. I think part of the genius of Cannady is it doesn't have an overlea said identity. I think that that's actually a strength. It makes it difficult to tell a story, but it's actually, I think, one of the things that is Health Canada in good stead because we don't have such a defining character or expectation that people have to become something. Adrian Clarkson had a very good term for it. She called it benign theglect. I used familiar with some of her writing. Yes, yes, that's yeah, she's a bit much sometimes, but she has some very good ideas. But I think she made a very good point actually, and she said, you know, when people come to this country at a certain level they're kind of left on their own to figure certain things out and there's not a lot of cultural pressure to become, you know, something different in a certain way and it gives people space to kind of settle in and and sort of figure out how they're going to live here and other people give the space. So, you know, coming from the United States, I didn't have pressures. I mean if I were coming from the Middle East or something, be very different. You know, I think it feels like to me it's living in a place that is more understated and more civilized and just operating at a lower, slower speed compared to the US and in you know, that is, I think, becoming increasingly valuable as a cultural trait in a world that's moving way too fast and, you know, it gets to too many extremes and in different ways in different places. So Canada's in a way a better place to live in the visit. Thank you for listening to an apologetically Canadian. This episode was brought to you by notable nonfiction. Notable nonfiction teaches people to grow through their own ingenuity. Find out more at notable nonfictioncom.

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