Sounder SIGN UP FOR FREE
Unapologetically Canadian
Unapologetically Canadian

Episode 53 · 1 year ago

How Lloyd Whitesell challenges norms

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Lloyd Whitesell challenges norms just by being himself. His academic career began with co-creating the field of queer musicology. He's now among the leaders working to make space for diverse populations within music. Along the way, he's won awards for research excellence and teaching. He's also the world's expert on singer songwriter Joni Mitchell's talent as a composer. Listen to our conversation and consider which norms unintentionally influence you. 

My name is Traci Ariel and I am an apologetically Canadian. So today I'm really excited to speak with Lloyd White. Cell Lloyd and I have been friends for a while, but I'm interviewing him today because of his he's got several books and a lot of he's really interesting doctor at the musicology center at Miguel Lloyd. How are you doing? Doing well, thanks for inviting me. Yeah, it's awesome. I'm so happy to talk with you. Obviously you're known for your book about Johnny Mitchell, so of course we're going to talk about that. But before we do, can you talk a little bit about your body of work and what has to do with identity, because I was fascinated to see how many different ways you've managed to look at identity in a body of work that's kind of diverse. Sure. Well, so a little bit about me. So I got started as a pianist and worked with opera singers for a while when I was younger, and at some point I took a swerve and I went into academic studies, so music history, or musicologies it's called sometimes, and then it was like well, so what what do I want to do? It is my intellectual path. And first I was really interested in how does music relate to other art forms like literature, because I had strong interests and I've always been a book person, and so there's a lot of cool theory of literature and Narrative and how it's all constructed and how, you know, how readers interact with books, and I thought, oh well, just got to be something here for music to so that was my first that's where I headed. First was this kind of cross art and theoretical take on operas, Song Cycles and that kind of thing. But I was also so as a gay person. I was interested because also in the humanities at the time when I was in Grand School, there is a lot of studies based on sexual identity sexual orientation as it impacts creative expression. So that was something that I really wanted. I thought, Oh, I probably can say something about that. And it was a challenge. It was like, you know, there's it's got a can't be in a direct way, you know, like you can look to feminist scholarship for people trying to think, well, do do the someone's experience as a woman affect the kind of books they want to write, the kind of emotions they want to express or how they interact with the world into creative way. Same thing with Queer people. So that's my first book that I published. Was a collection of articles. I wrote the introduction. Co wrote it with a friend of mine from the UK and contributed one article. But it was on these this question of you know, the from the perspective of socalled Queer musicology. So that's one aspect of identity right there that still is. Still was that. To remind me of the title. The title is called Queer episodes in music and modern identity. So it's Nineteen Nineteen and twenty century is the period that that our contributors were looking at, right but this is still so. That was kind of okay. That was kind of a new field back then, and so it was really exciting to, you know, kind of get in when things were changing, because musicology before, you know, for a long time music coology had been pretty conservative and stiff and Stodgy, and so so there's a lot of a lot of back and forth within the field, you know, but from the conservative side and from the people who are trying to say no, ...

...we can talk about all these exciting political things and identity questions as well, it's not just about the notes. So maybe I'll let you get our word in edgewise before I know. I wanted you to talk about that because it is sort of a basic of everything, right, because you are an academic your you work from Gil, you are think you're assistant Dan now of that department, right of the show. Yeah, exact title right now is by steam, by Stein. Okay, but that doesn't mean assistant. Well, there's associated deans and then the spy steen. But we don't need to we don't need to get into semantics. But what is a vice thing? Like? Why? Like? Why? Why is that? Because you specialize in a specific area or like all? It's really what? It's a door like the the dean's right hand person. I mean it actually didn't exist until last year because we're going into the BI centennial for McGill University and there's going to be a lot of the dean was going to have to do a lot of working with donors and doing traveling. Except what happened, of course, was covid. So I haven't been I haven't been doing, you know, the Bisntana support. I've been doing covid support and any but you know, that's just the way it works out right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, this year's things have changed for almost everybody. I mean that you just got to go with the flow, I mean gotta go with the no one. Yeah, exactly, but you know. So what I was really interested in seeing? Obviously you also have a book called the wonderful design, which is which is again. How is that appealed like what this was? This was more almost fashioned rather than music, wasn't it? Well, the topic is Glamor in music. So I what I'm looking at there is actually film, so film musicals and Hollywood film musicals. So the nice classics with Judy Garland and Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire, but also up to the presence, up to dream girls and Lalaland and that kind of thing. So, but the so it's just not so much about identity as it is about style. But it's I develop a concept of glamor that applies to the visual as well as the sonic. But there's so many theorists, when they talk about Glamor, are only talking about the look or maybe the you know, maybe the material objects, like what it things are made of. But there's a lot that's just in the the you can get a sense of glamor from the sound, and so that was my challenge there was how do you talk about that and what kind of emotions can be packed into a glamorous sound and the glamorous look? That's interesting because you've taken what is really a stayed sort of idea. I mean it's been covered in so many different ways and then you pulled in an entire different sense and then expanded it. So can you give it us and a little idea of what you're basically what do you think? How do you think people composers do that with music? I mean what it because you're talking about mood in many ways, but it's more than mood. Yeah, it's kind of yeah, you're right, it's in between moods, Inter between emotion and technique in a way, and so it's like there's this idea that that came up in a British writer. He talks about structures of feeling. So, in other words, emotion sounds like it's just a soft...

...thing and it's intangible and subjective. You can't really it's hard to relate from person to person, but people in similar experiences or in peace and simial similar social situations can relate to certain structures of emotion and in a way you can talk about glamor as structuring your feelings in a certain way, because it's it's weak, it's arousing fantasy, rousing desires, you know, so that you know like here's a glimpse of Paradise. You know here you have the illusion that you can get to it for a temporary moment and all of the you know, you imagine yourself of being a better person just by looking at this glossy photograph. Or Yeah, sorry, did you want to say something? This is going to ask you if you can an example I wanted to give you. Ask You if you can give me an example in an actual specific song. Well, you're problem. I can talk about I can give you. So there's one that's just from the radio, like from the forties. Glenn Miller Orchestra had their Classic Moonlight Serenade, Dunna Da da Da, da Dadaa. And so if you can reconstruct that in your mind or go to youtube and call it up and listen to the sound of how the instant, what instruments there are, how they interact each other, how smoothed out at all is because there's a rhythm section, but it's really smoothed out and made elegant and everything has to be so restrained. So when I was studying all this music, is like what's the recipe for Glamor? So there has to be sensuous qualities, you know, lots of Gooey or excessive or extravagant textures, whether it's visual or sonic, but then there has to be restraint to balance that out, because then it's not glamorous unless you are holding yourself in a restrain way or singing in a cultivated way or holding the rhythms in so it doesn't sound too dancy, right. And the other two, the other two ingredients are sophistication, so you're pulling you know things that other people might not think of. You're aware of all these vocabularies and they might be more sophisticated rather than common. And finally, elevation. Somehow it can lift you out of the every day and that can be just in a simple way where melodies rise up or you have choirs hovering like a cloud, but somehow it's making you feel ethereal and elevated. And so hopefully, if you listen that Glen Miller. You can get all those ingredients in that song. But but then a really wellknown one, a really wellknown one, is maybe in a surprising place. It's in the wizard of Oz. It's in somewhere over the rainbow right away and if you remember that, you're in a real, you know setting, the farm yard. But then Dorothy is thinking, you know what, if I could be, you know, over in that other land and the so the sounds that come out of her throat and the sounds of the orchestra call to mind. They're all glamorous. So it's very surprising. It's like it doesn't fit in that world because she's she's picturing utopia for us through her singing. Oh, that's an interesting element as well. I'll definitely put the moonlight serenide into the show notes, though, because I think that that song is it appears in so many pot so many instances of pop culture, and it always in order to bring the Lammer to it. So it's...

...one of those songs that, you though it was written in the S, it's still has a really current presence. Yeah, it's not funny, it just boring and it just even for you know, us that words around. You know, it just brings it brings up this picture from that time. Yeah, exactly, big bands and you know, yeah, dance rolls and all that kind of stuff. You know, it really does. I mean you're right, it's sort of insect glamor. That's a really I'm very happy you spoke about that one. It's really was. I don't know what to expect because you've done so much. I mean I love the picture you sent me because because you are one of the foremost academics. Now on Joe Mitchell, because of your book, took a different look at at her in that you actually looked at her work from a musicology since sense. You actually talked about why her, how she used music in a different way to show the kinds of things that she was pushing for, almost as an activist, and and and and she did it as a composer. From your point of view, can you talk a little bit about your research in that and how it came about? Why did you then? What made you studies? Don't even till in the first place. Well, of course I was a fan at you know, starting as a fan, but then, you know, even when I was a little piano student, in Conservatory and, you know, with my roommate we were listening to the album blue and grooving on it and getting all, you know, sort of you know, melancholy, and you know because we were we were trying to learn how to be musical, we're trying to learn how to be performers, and here was this amazing songwriter who just projected so directly all these emotions. So it was part of that kind of training. But at the same time I was talking with another friend, you know, even back then when I was a teenager and and talking about well, what, how does she do that? One of the chords, and and this woman, I don't remember, she's a flutist or whiberus is watch out, because Joni Mitchell's really modal. So it was like a way of saying that all the stuff that you've been learning in music theory class is not going to help you. Like she's not, she's not doing the same thing that Boch, etc. We're doing, because she's doing something modal. So that sort of must have stuck in my head. And then later on when I went into you know, academic academic music scholarship, then I realize, Oh wow, I want to figure out what she is actually doing. How does she get those amazing effects and what makes her distinct? What makes her different from other song on his ever time? And then, as I was also getting, you know, sort of engage with feminism, then I realized, like, no one's writing about this woman. I mean the books you could find were biographies, they were gossip, you know, they were maybe cultural studies of her impact, you know, as a cultural figure, but there wasn't anything on her as a composer, as like, what is it about her songwriting? Except you could find little things from guitarists and more specialized magazines, you know, about her alternate tunings and that instruments and that kind of thing, but it was really not very much out there. And so I thought, wow, I have something to contribute here and I'd like to just do a picture of her. What she's doing with your lyrics and music and what are all the tools that she's exploring, and so that's what I, you know, took that was my project in that books, like what are the different aspects and what? You know, harmony was a big thing. That was one of that. That's one of the very aspects of makes her very distinct. So that was a big element. But I talked...

...about melody as well and and also her the her ability to shape shift. Like, if you look across all her songs, she takes on all these amazingly different voices, from just simple souls who are just chatting, you know, or just jamming with friends, to like these cutting kind of Bob Dylans, kind of knock down satires, to narratives, ballots, to you know, kind of these scenario, these little vignettes of people she observed in Los Angeles and so so there was just so much there. I just try to do to do first mapping out of everything that's there and start off as an academic paper and then turn into a book or what. How did you do? How did what's the process in terms of kids? Of course I'm talking to some creative entrepreneurs with what did you do in terms of the publishing side? Yeahs an academic first it what? Yeah, well, it is from a university press, so it is, you know, it's definitely it's definitely for you know, it has its academic credentials, but hopefully there's enough in there for a general against as well. But you know, I have a lot of analysis. So not everyone might know the you know, the kind of chord symbols that I use, that kind of thing. But yeah, it is definitely from the academic world. So I had a mentor in my early career who helped me out and said, you know, this could really be something that you could explore. Like, like I was just talking about my interest in Joane. He's so, why don't you? He says, I'm on the Board of Women and Music, this Journal, this feminist journal, and so why don't you write an article? And so that was the first publication and then that just ledge. I realized that, you know, I wanted to do the whole cover all of it, not just one aspect. So so it was definitely through an academic path and but but a mentor was very helpful. Who was the mentor? was that someone who's a teacher or he was in my first teaching job. He was a slightly older colleague who helped hire me there and, you know, who was interested in the so called newer musicology, the newer approaches like identity approaches and, you know, women studies, etc. And so he, you know, he gave me encouragement and you know, it was able. I was at the University of Virginia. Okay, so this was your undergraduate too, period. Note, that's a graduate degrees, my first teaching job, your first teaching job. Okay, yeah, well, actually that gives me a good chance to talk about your path, because you haven't been in Canada your whole life. Are quite a while now, but you can give an idea of what where you can where you come from and what hot what led you here? Sure, so, I'm from Minnesota, so Canada adjacent, but the states we sometimes we could take on. Yeah, so we would go to Canada for canoeing trips or fishing or something like that. But and actually, when I was in high school I went to these summer camps. They had a program of camps with language where you learned languages. So I went to a French camp where, you know, you go there and then you are supposed to sort of start to, you know, have a feeling like you're going to a different country and you're supposed to speak French as much as possible. On the older you get, then there's, you know, the more restrictions on...

...not speaking English. So I did this for a few years and then the last year we took a road trip as part of the camp experience and came up to Quebec. So we, you know, did a little visit to Quebec City and to Montreal back then, and little did I know I would end up here as an adult. But anyway, so when I finish my doctorate degree, and it was I had a hard time finding academic jobs. There's not a lot of humanities jobs, and so I had a period of seven years where I was in a one year position, you know, not knowing from one year to the next where I might end up, and I was applying all over the place and so I had a very traveling experience and my partner just said, well, I'm going to stay in Minneapolis and tell you settle down. So that's what happened and so I ended up getting, you know, my first Gig at mcguil was just a one year job, but then it turned into a permanent job and I'm so happy. I'd love being at McGill. I Love My colleagues and I love me in Montreal. So I'm at a Canadian citizen. I'm a dual citizen now, and so it's my adopted country and I have to say that it's been a very much sane or experience in the past four years, then if I would have stayed in my own original tentry. Oh my gosh, yes, for your exist I think the last four years and two thousand and twenty will all be wiped out in January in such an exciting day up. Yes, I know, and it is. It's very weird looking across the border as an expatriate, you know, and feeling Oh my family is there, what are they going through? You know, like it's it's just it's a very weird experience. But so does that. That tells you my path here, tells me very basic about my your path here, but it doesn't tell me about your experience here, because you've been here. I mean, how many years have you been here? It's been a long time now. It's been nineteen. You for nineteen years. So you've more than that. Yeah, nineteen, W nineteen years. When did you have nineteen years? Oh my Gosh, so you celebrate twenty years soon. When do you celebrate? What month? August, I guess, coming up. Yeah, that's cool. Oh my gosh, that's that's a cool idea. I didn't get a chance to tell you, to ask you a little bit about how your identity has changed since you've moved here and, like we'K my usual question is what kind of what? What's your biggest success and then what's your biggest failure? So thinking about that and your your path in Kennic, can you talk a little bit about your experience since you've come here and and and and doing a career that's actually very difficult to follow in Canada as well? I mean there's you know, there's there's no doubt that in the last twenty years things have changed for people with a with a guy gay identity by itself, but people studying mean you're you are putting out your ideas all the time publicly. You talked a little bit about about your successes and failures on that level. Wow, that's a lot of questions all in a big I have to try and think. I've to try. You N up, Tony, really what you want? I see?...

Yeah, well, I can. You know, my biggest failure is a long time ago, because I was on track to be a performer. I thought I was going to have a career as a performer and I had performance injury and injury in the in the course of performing, which then their implications and you know, kind of screwed up that. You know, career paths and at that time, okay, hold on, what kind of performed? What kind of performer? Yeah, what were you doing? And what was three? So I was a pianist and I was still in, you know, my undergraduate degree, but I was working at as a companist, so collaborative with singers mostly, although other instrumentalist as well. And so that just means gigging around and going to different pianos that you're not prepared you know, like every Pian is different, the touch is different, sometimes it's differ. And so I strained a muscle and then that led to convocations and so, you know, injuries, I mean performance injuries, is the science has been getting better, but at that time there was weren't a lot of people who are studying performance injuries. You know, just think of sports medicine, but if you're talking about arts medicine, it was pretty you know, it was rudimentary, at least where I was. If I was in New York City, that would have been a different case maybe. But so then I had to just sit and take some time off and figure out, you know, this is a life change and what am I going to do? And that's when I eventually, but it took me a while, decided to go into scholarship and academia rather than the performing arts. So that was a big I mean it was I don't know, it's not a personal failure so much as just an obstacle that happened, you know, that I had to deal with and recover from and figure out. And of course, you know, trying to figure out in the midst when you're totally depressed is not and you can't think straight. That's it like an another layer to it. So, you know, I had to get through the depression before it could make, you know, some some good life decisions after that. But I really happy with what I ended up doing because it sort of brings together the performing side, the creative side, and the bookish analytical side and, you know, as a teacher or you get it to stand up in front of people and and be, you know, pretty perform which have a lot anyway. So so that's very rewarding, I find. Okay, that's a fascinating path. And that was when you were in Virginia, was it? Nope, that was when I was a little pip squeak and just in my undergraduate so then after that I had to decide to go into group. I had to go into Grad School in musicology, and then I got my first job at Virginia. Okay. And so where was that? What school was it? University of Minnesota? Oh, that was instill in Minnesota. Then, okay, wow, okay. And so so your path has been kind of complicated up until then. But then since then, when you look at at least your online bio and you look at all the different books that you've done, they all seem very connected. Can you talk a little bit about how you've turned like your favorite success in this process, in my work? You mean? I mean so in terms of work? Well, I guess just I'm just...

...glad I stuck to it, because it was hard when I was first applying for jobs and I was really under it was very uncertain to know how accepting different places would be of Queer Musicology, for instance, or of any of the new musicology like women's studies, etc. So, you know, I knew people that were open minded, progressive, whatever you want to say. But then you know, you just sending out your your job, you know your materials, and Cvat to everyone. You have no idea whether there are conservative or whether they're, you know what kind of thing. So in a way it's just like I had to be true to myself and just think that, you know, where do I want to end up? I want to end up in a place where I don't have to pretend to be what I'm not, you know, and a place where they would appreciate this kind of work and think it's valid. So that's kind of a long term success that I just am very fortunate that I found a place where they, you know, like they immediately said, Oh, we think you're great, like they liked everything I did, whereas I didn't have to squeeze myself into different you know, I didn't have to squeeze myself into a different mold or anything like that. So and that's just, you know, and the interesting, interesting thing about who you are is that you are sort of a dichotomy of people, you know, like I mean you are your your your work and your passion is really obvious and it's and it's out there and it's exp and it's breaking barriers in terms of what people think, because you're breaking barriers on the music side, and we in that you're bringing the rigors of an academic study and and and composition to ideas that are really popular and and not necessarily evident, you know, like Joni Mitchell's career. Nobody else could have thought about that. When people think of doing Mitchell, they don't necessarily think of composed great composer, you know, and that's because that's the theory that you gave us right and and also with my listeners. Don't get to meet you, but I've known you for years and you're, I mean you're one of the most conservative types that I've ever met. And you know, in terms of you know, you're quiet, your relatively, you know, you look like a teacher on Miguel whatever that, and yet you're studying glamor and and really extreme visions of what it means to be gay in the world. And so how do you balance those dichotomies? You know. Well, I mean, I guess what what I try to hold the idea being true to yourself. It's something that I try to foster with in my teaching. In other words, like I don't want to, I don't want to. I would like to see what people come when they want to study with me. It will like what did they bring? What are their interests and, if I have something to give, how can I foster their own individual search? You know, that's what's important to me. Instead of because when I was younger, I was getting advised on what gradual stools to go to. People told me stories of where they'd wanted to do something but they went to an Ivy League department where they were not allowed. Just like know that you can't do that or that you have to wait and write through two books first before you get to do what you really want to do. So that just I mean, isn't that just like? Don't that terrible? It's like a cycle of abuse,...

...is what it is. You know, it's like, well, what do you do? What is what is the life of an intellectual? The life of an intellectuals like you? You're given a gift and you should be able to to explore that gift and foster it. So so that's the way I mean, at least in my intellectual explorations, I feel very adventurous. Maybe in my personal maybe when you look at me I'm I'm not flam both anything or Bohemian, but but I try to challenge my students to to think differently into you know, to not you know, I mean one of the lessons of gay experience, and you know, the analysis of the experience, is being aware of the norms and how norms can damage you. Like that. Norms are invisible often, but they're you can feel them. You they're pushing you to a certain way and for some people it's harmful. You know, for a lot of people it's harmful, but for some people they they can tell. It's like, you're pushing me in the wrong way. So I feel like that happened. That can happen in the life of the mind to interesting. So that's how yeah, so from for you, it's a an intellectual Riggor and making sure that people do what they actually are here to do. Yeah, and be but also be open my it, in other words, like so there's the norms, but there's also the margins. Like I just think that there's a lot of fun stuff going on at the margins. So that's why always where I'm drawn to. Actually, you can say that about it's true. So tell me about your experience in Canada and and what I mean. You chose to be a Canadian. You've decided to take on dual citizenship. Why? Well, I was just happy with my position, with my job and, you know, living here in Montreal and just then so wanting to be part of the community, wanting to be able to vote, wanted to make a difference, you know, just wanting to participate, because it you know, it's like so, having gone through the seven years of uncertainty and job insecurity and not knowing where I was going to end up, once I landed in a place that is very happy, it was like, okay, I don't want to move again, you know, this is it. I want to put down roots, and so that was definitely behind that. And plus it's just, you know, there's so much to learn culturally INQUEBEC and in Montreal, because so, look, I'm at the you know, an Anglophone Institution in French speaking Quebec, in, you know, Canada, and so it's like these layers of you know what I mean, like the layers of politics, layers of cultural exchange. It's just it's just been fascinating to kind of get get it. Well, I'm podcast I wrote a podcast called unapologetically Canadian in Quebec. I mean, yes, exactly, and I'm glad you're not apologetic. Know, well, why should I be? It like it's fun alogetically. Canadians are apologetic for everything. We don't have to be apologetic about identity. But, but, I mean,...

...and you are active in the community and you are you do support. I mean one of the reasons that I know you is because you've supported our farmers market for years and you are you are a support to people who are doing really fun and important work in the city. So, okay, talk a little bit about what you your personal life, you're your community side. You know what a what? What do you love doing outside of work? Well, what I love doing is just so I live in Verdun, so I love being by the water and I love being by Green Space and I love just exploring the bike paths and canals and islands and sea ways and just letting my mind kind of, you know, heal itself. And then, actually it's through my partner in a lot of ways that I have more connection to the community because since he is has been working with community politics and municipal politics and then going to a lot of workshops or consultation sessions that all of a sudden, like you know, he knew everyone down our streets. Like I just I just been putting my head to the grind, my nose at the grindstone, and going to the Metro and going to work, and then all of a sudden, you know, I was like, oh, there's so and so and Oh, let's do a green alley and let's, you know, green our alley and meet all these people and there's the cat ladies, you know, rescues cats and so so that was just a revelation. I have to say I cannot take credit for that. It really is, you know, been my partner's been that kind of involved in so I've been. It's been bet very beneficial for me to get involved through him as well. So you too. They can feel like a name partners in context. You know, you chose to get involved. Yeah, yeah, you may not have let the project you actually have. You're always there, you're always working. I mean it's a you do participate. Well, thanks, you're very you're very you're giving me good strokes here. I think it's awesome. I mean it's was there anything that I didn't ask you that you really wanted to mention, because we didn't talk about several of your works and we didn't talk as much about identity as I was thinking we were going to. was there anything that well, one thing I do want to mention, just that, since I mentioned I'm in the administration at the in the School of Music at McGill University, is the that there a lot of music schools in North America are going through a kind of rethink or you could even say an identity crisis, and this was brought home to us by a lot of our students this summer with the black lives matter movement and, you know, the different demonstrations that were happening, and of course it was intensified by the covid crisis as well, because people were sort of trapped, and you know this the cybersphere, you know, and seeing all the stuff happening and wanted to get involved but but feeling kind of restricted. And so it's like things that I've been thinking about for much of my work career in terms of identity and diversity and being open minded and representation of people who haven't been included in history. We're coming home to roost in a way like, you know, having to do...

...with, you know, going going to my you know, going to my work and like is, are the people out in society reflected in the people in my work? And so and also like who do we teach? Who Do we put on our orchestra programs? You know, does it reflect the you know, people of Color? Does it? Do we talk about People's sexuality? So this is something that a lot of schools are going through and we're kind of going through that right now to and it's I find it very exciting, but also I feel like I'm hitting I'm really glad that I'm the age I am and I have the experience I have in order to deal with this, because it is very challenging, because it's not easy to figure out, you know, once you've been trained a certain way and sometimes the norms, like I mentioned, have been sort of baked into you, you know, like Oh, this is just this is the best music ever, and it's hard to realize. We'll wait a minute. Is that me speaking, or or have I've been sort of like pushed into this way of thinking? And so, in response to some of the demands of the students who are who seem to be saying, well, look, do we look like a twenty one century school, or what do we need to do? To try and open up what we do, and a lot of it has to do with identity. So I find it interesting that the stuff I've been thinking about intellectually is now intersecting with that aspect of leadership at the school. Yeah, and and that actually is a really challenging moment in time, because we are also dealing with a pandemic and even pulling in music musicians individually have also been suffering this year because it's really hard for them to get work right now. I mean, you're not even I'm not even talking about the academic world. But yeah, the our society is also suffering because we can't even the people who are already performing or have a jobs in music or in any of the performing arts have had to almost take a hiatus for the year. Yes, I mean it not invite, but almost. Well, it's true. It's very deep. It goes very deep and this affects students, you know, let who oftentimes, well, that's part of their income is being able to, you know, do these performances as they're going to school and then that as just taken out from under them. So it's like, aside from all the other in certainties, there's that added level of anxiety. And I don't know, I mean it didn't hit me as hard being, you know, on the academic side rather than the performing side, but I look at my colleagues in performance and there they just were huge, huge, emotional, you know, just like what do I do now? What is it going to look like? How long is it going to take if it gets back to normal? So you're right, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's and and so to change an institution which is already like changing a big ship, while you're also facing such society, society as itself is almost in an identity crisis. Now to YEP, you know, in terms of how do we how do we take what we are the some of what we've learned this year about inclusion and bringing new voices forward, and as all of us are trying to figure out how best to bring our own voices forward. I mean everybody isn't sort of in it together? And I think, and I mean we've also I mean on the ecological side, we've also got the fact that people haven't been traveling, which has been great for the Earth but not so great for humans and connections. Wow, I just love how you put how are...

...you do I love how you put that. Bringing new voices forward and we're all in it together. Those are just really great things to keep in mind. Yeah, well, I mean that was your that's what I got from what you said, so we're playing off each other. Thank you very much. I didn't have any other questions. I'm really, really happy to be able to to present your work and to get to know you. I will put some links to some of your books into the show notes. Great and thank you very much for your time. Thanks so much, Tracy, and I look forward to seeing you in person when we can do it. Yeah, me do. Thank you for listening to unapologetically Canadian. This episode was brought to you by city Gardeners Dot Sea, the Gardening Club for city gardeners,.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (58)